Related Manuals for Regal-Beloit GE ECM 2.3
Summary of Contents for Regal-Beloit GE ECM 2.3
- Page 1 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit ECM Indoor Blower Motors Premium Models 2.3/2.5 & Standard Model X13 Technical Manual www.theDealerToolbox.com © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v 0.2...
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Page 2: Table Of Contents
X13 Standard ECM Features X13 vs. PSC 74 - 75 X13 Connections and Communication 76 - 81 Servicing the X13 82 - 88 Replacing the X13 89 - 91 © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v 0.2... -
Page 3: Premium Ecm Indoor Blower Motors
Digital Serial Communication 2002 ECM 2.5 o Enables plug & play HVAC systems o Fewer replacement part numbers o More accurate operation and fault reporting o Currently in Production - 1 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 4: Residential Blower Motor Applications
Premium ECM indoor blower motors are primarily found in multi-stage premium systems. However they can be and are used in single stage systems as well. Two-Stage Furnace Geothermal Heat Pump Air Handlers/Fan Coils Package Systems Proven. - 2 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 5: Ecm Vs. Psc
ECM vs. PSC Why is the Premium ECM motor so much better than a PSC induction motor? - 3 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 6: Constant Airflow
This is where the ECM motor excels. Not only does it maintain constant airflow, but it also uses less energy in doing so. The energy savings is even larger when continuous fan is utilized. - 4 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 7 External Air Volume Static CFM per blower speed Pressure High Medium 1625 1520 1375 1475 1410 1225 1290 1200 1100 1120 1110 1040 - 5 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 8: Psc Motor Operation
Continuous fan De-humidification Emergency Heat The PSC motor suffers from to many demands and not enough options, audible start/stop noise, and low efficiency. - 6 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 9: Premium Ecm Motor Operation
“Airflow” is programmed by the OEM and is specific and unique to the motor and air mover combination. No other motor offers so many ways to control comfort and efficiency. - 7 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 10 Trim/Adjust Airflow Selection Dip Switch Number Dip Switch Number Norm +10% -10% Airflow for all demands and comfort options is easily selected and perfectly matched to the system. - 8 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 11 Through a series of these iterations, the motor eventually brings the torque and speed back to the airflow curve. And voila, you have constant airflow. - 9 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 12: Comfort
You can see how running the fan continuously would be something most homeowners would want to take advantage of, especially with the energy savings, added comfort, and virtually unnoticeable operation of the ECM motor. - 10 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 13: Efficiency
GE ECM 280 Watts 35 Watts 250 300 400 450 650 700 750 800 850 900 950 1000 1050 1100 1150 1200 Motor Speed (RPM) - 11 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 14: Ecm Myths And The Air Distribution System
Zoning and humidifier bypass connections should be as far upstream in the return as possible from the unit. ECM motors are designed to handle the maximum (or higher) return air temperature specified by the manufacturer for their unit. - 12 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 15: The Ecm Technology (Overview)
In a DC motor, commutation or phase shifting is controlled by the brushes. In this motor the phase shifting is controlled electronically using sensor less position feedback. Motor Control 3-Phase AC Motor - 13 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 16 Motor Module the controls to adjust current (torque) and frequency (speed) to maintain the selected 3 Ø AC Motor CFM profile. GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Premium ECM Motor - 14 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 17: Premium Ecm Motor Construction
This is done to enhance reliability. Power conditioning module o EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) Filter o Rectifiers o Capacitor Filter Power Conditioning Module Microcomputer Module - 15 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 18 Three Iron Ferrite magnets glued on rotor sleeve Magnetized at GE ECM Factory Two Resilient Rings isolate the shaft from the rotor Ball Bearings (perform better at low RPM) Resilient Ring - 16 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 19: Rotor Position Sensing
Let’s pull it all together again. The ECM motor is basically a 3-Phase motor operated by a motor control. Motor Control 3-Phase AC motor - 17 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 20: The Line Voltage (High Voltage) Power Connection
(Caution: with proper jumper connection) The connector is keyed for proper connection. The 120vac input The 240vac input uses a jumper does not use a jumper (red wire) - 18 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 21 The standby input power on average for the 120/240vac motor is approximately 2–3 watts. Important Note: The ECM 2.3/2.5 motor is designed to be powered at all times. - 19 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 22: The Signal Cable (Low Voltage) Connection
This is necesary to be able to select multiple programmed airflow and comfort settings for each of these demands as well as delays, and other comfort selections. - 20 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 23 The OEM charts shown previously along with other set-up information found in the manufacturers manuals will show how to set the various types of controls (shown below) for proper airflow, operation, comfort and efficiency. Jumper Pins Dip Switches - 21 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 24 The thermostat sends the 24vac demand (heat, cool, continuous fan...) to the OEM control board. The OEM control board sends the selected airflow communication per demand to the motor. - 22 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 25: Initial Set-Up Modes Of Operation
There are four discrete selectable outputs for: o Cooling Airflow o Heating Airflow o Trim/Adjust Multipliers o Climate (delay) Profiles A humidistat function may also be used. - 23 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 26 The mode taps are Heat, Cool, Delay and Adjust (tap select) ECM 2.0 & 2.3 Motor Control Interface Board 24vac to demand tap A, B, C or D signal to mode tap - 24 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 27 (i.e. 1200, 1000, 800, 600). There is only a 1 in 4 chance that the factory “as shipped” cooling airflow is correct for the condenser being used. - 25 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 28 Never assume the factory setting is the correct setting without checking the installation manual first. Always check the temperature rise and confirm that it is within the manufacturers specifications on every job. - 26 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 29 This may require the heating setting to be adjusted for proper temperature rise after this setting has been changed. - 27 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 30 The controlled ramping eliminates the loud start-up found in standard systems with induction motors Ramping down to zero slowly allows the system to take advantage of already heated or cooled air left over in the ventilation system. - 28 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 31 Climate (Delay) Profiles Shown here are the recommendations for cooling profiles in relationship to the humidity index map. - 29 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 32 There may be situations where a specific profile is not recommended. For example: In a hot/humid climate, off cycle delay may not be recommended due to re- humidification. - 30 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 33 Normal Operation Normal Operation With Humidistat With Humidistat Dehumidify Dehumidify Dehumidify Pre-run Pre-run Short Short Full Full capacity capacity Delay Delay - 31 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 34 Tap Board Thermidistat OEM Specific Keep in mind that each manufacturer may or may not utilize this function and may have other options of control, wiring and set-up. - 32 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 35 This information is typically designed to indicate to the consumer when the filter is blocked by an alert on the thermostat. - 33 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 36: Pwm (Pulse Width Modulation)
Since this is strictly OEM specific, the manufacturer’s literature must be consulted for set-up options and troubleshooting. - 34 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 37 Start/Stop signal: 9 - 23VDC Start/Stop signal: 9 - 23VDC output percentage. * Not Connected * Not Connected - 35 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 38 Connected to PWM common PWM (Duty Cycle) PWM signal PWM signal Start/Stop signal: 9 - 23VDC Start/Stop signal: 9 - 23VDC * Not Connected * Not Connected - 36 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 39: Dsi (Direct Serial Interface)
Voltage pin supplier for data out 8 Ground common 9 NC* Data in 11 NC* 12 NC* 13 NC* 14 NC* 15 NC* Data out *Not Connected - 37 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 40 OEM classes are highly recommended for the specific technical knowledge of this style equipment and the ability to educate the customer on all of the features and how to use them. - 38 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 41: Servicing The Premium Ecm Motor
Standard ECM Motor Diagnostics TECMate Usage Chart Troubleshooting with the TECMate Module and Motor Replacement Final Installation Checks The ECM Service Guide replaced the Home Comfort Guide. - 39 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 42: Service Basics
This is not recommended. A defective door switch should always be replaced and a bypassed door switch should always be returned to working order and checked. This is a safety switch. RTM – Read The Manual - 40 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 43 Resetting the system will most likely get it to run again, but not for very long. This is an operational motor problem, where the motor and the system are operating, but there are other factors that caused the service call. - 41 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 44 24vac between Y2 and C 24vac between R and C 24vac between G and C Call for Continuous Fan only: 24vac between G and C 24vac between R and C - 42 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 45: If The Motor Is Operating
If the system is zoned, what position are the dampers in and what position should they be in? Return Grille Supply Registers Return Trunk Damper Supply Trunk Evaporator Coil (A-Coil) Secondary Filter Heat Exchanger Blower Wheel - 43 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 46 A static pressure tip can also make the readings more accurate. However since static pressure exerts force in all directions a straight tube can also be used. Ductwork Static Pressure Tip - 44 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 47 The incline manometer shows a reading of .5 in. wc. from a combined total of .15 in. wc. return and .35 in. wc. supply. - 45 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 48 ESP on this system. These readings will be just as accurate, however it is highly recommended that you check with the manufacturer of that system for approval to drill test holes in their cabinet. - 46 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 49 Many times these filters get replaced with higher efficiency filters that are good at catching dust and dirt but will be bad at moving air if they are not sized properly. - 47 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 50 Always follow the OEM specifications. • MERV ratings are for filter performance but not for filter sizing. OEM specs from filter manufacturers are needed for sizing and pressure drop • - 48 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 51 EMF is produced. When it first starts, it may rotate correctly or incorrectly. Once the rotor position is sensed, the motor control energizes the phases in the direction of the required rotation. - 49 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 52: If The Motor Is Not Operating
OEM’s interface board for troubleshooting using the OEM’s service guide. 40% of GE ECM™ field returns are “No Problem Found”. Do not simply assume the motor has failed because it is not running! - 50 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 53 Always confirm that the system power has been disconnected with a meter. Check line to line and each line to ground. - 51 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 54 Our leads were supplied by Test Products International (TPI). For more information on these leads please visit our website at www.theDealerToolbox.com. - 52 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 55 Meter connected between Meter connected between Terminal #5 and #4 Terminal #5 and #3 Terminal #4 and #3 120vac 120vac 240vac AC Volts AC Volts AC Volts - 53 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 56 There is also an optional ground wire that can be installed from one of the motor bolts to the blower housing. If the OEM specifies this ground wire make sure it is in place. - 54 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 57: Checking The Motor Control And Motor Module
The TECMate XL may not accuratly troubleshoot Carrier/Bryant 2.0/2.3 motors. Note - These tools are not for use on GE ECM condensing fan or draft inducer motors. - 55 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 58 16-pin connector latch. Simply reconnect the 5-pin connector once the TECMate is connected. 5-pin Connector Removed OEM 16-pin Connector Latch 5-pin Connector Re-installed TECMate 16-pin Connector - 56 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 59 The motor should never be operationally checked without the blower wheel attached. Such operation will cause the motor to oscillate up and down. - 57 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 60 Table as shown on the back of the TECMate XL™ Figure 1 Figure 1 24VAC 24VAC TECMate TECMate 120V or 120V or 240V AC 240V AC ECM Motor ECM Motor Power Power - 58 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 61 24vac. Observe the motor for 15 seconds. (Refer to the Table on the back of the TECMate PRO™ for operation guidelines.) Table as shown on the back of the TECMate PRO™ - 59 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 62 Procedures for testing the motor module are included in “Replacing the ECM Module” on the next page. Motor Control 3-Phase AC motor - 60 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 63: Replacing The Ecm Modules
5. Ensure the motor module is not damaged by performing the two simple tests listed on page 65. - 61 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 64 Step 4 - Unplug the 3-pin connector from inside the control by squeezing the latch and gently pulling on the connector. - 62 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 65 “OHM CIRCUIT”. To calibrate the meter to 0 (zero) you would touch the two leads together, and adjust the screw until the needle is over the 0 (zero). - 63 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 66 Lead 1 to Ground Ohms Pass or Fail Motor # 2 Pass Fail Lead 2 to Ground Pass or Fail Lead 3 to Ground Pass or Fail - 64 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 67 Lead 1 to Lead 2 Pass or Fail Motor # 1 Pass Fail Lead 1 to Lead 3 Pass or Fail Lead 2 to Lead 3 Pass or Fail - 65 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 68 Lead 1 to Lead 2 Pass or Fail Motor # 3 Pass Fail Lead 1 to Lead 3 Pass or Fail Lead 2 to Lead 3 Pass or Fail - 66 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 69 If the wheel sits too close to the motor when centered or cannot be centered because it hits the motor, the motor must be adjusted in the belly band. - 67 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 70 Plug the 16-pin connector and the 5-pin connector back into the motor. Make sure the keyed connectors are inserted properly and securely until they click. - 68 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 71 Be certain to form a drip-loop so that water cannot enter the motor by draining down the cables. Condensate or droplets can accumulate in the harness and may find their way into the motor. - 69 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 72 Check the level of Carbon Monoxide (CO) in the vent(s) and living spaces of all homes with fossil-fuel appliances. Recommend annual maintenance - 70 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 73: Premium Ecm Motor Failure Footnotes
2.3 and 2.5. Check with your local distributor to see if they offer control only parts. Sometimes under warranty they may simply provide you with an entirely new motor assembly. - 71 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 74 - 2.3 motors will have 10 or mores wires in the 16-pin connector - 2.5 motors will have 5 or less wires in the 16-pin connector All current model 2.3/2.5 motors are labeled as such. - 72 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 75: Standard Ecm Indoor Blower Motor
Standard ECM Indoor Blower Motor Proven. - 73 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... -
Page 76: X13 Standard Ecm Features
Easy Set-up Easy Troubleshooting Easy Troubleshooting One Piece Replacement One Piece Replacement 5 Outputs 5 Outputs Demand Specific Torque Programming Programmable Fixed Off Delays Only High Efficiency - 74 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 77 PSC motor in response to changes in static pressure. Only it holds that curve up a little better than the PSC motor does. - 75 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 78: X13 Connections And Communication
There are two discrete models per voltage, one for 115vac applications and one for 230vac applications. The allowable voltage range on these motors 98-132vac on the 115vac model 196-264vac on the 230vac model - 76 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 79 The information most important to the field technician is understanding how the X13 motor operates compared to a PSC motor or the Premium ECM 2.3 motor for proper set-up and troubleshooting. - 77 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 80 This information is manufacturer specific, listed in the installation instructions for each unit. - 78 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 81 Heat/cool package system. Example 2. Air handler used with a heat pump. Example 3. Gas heat furnace with the ability to operate with two different tonnage A/C units. - 79 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 82 (N), and one 1/4” terminal for (C). The low voltage connection plug contains the five (1-5) 1/4” terminals. Each of these terminals could also be individually wired as shown here. - 80 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 83 This will properly orient the low voltage terminals 1-5. Below is a schematic view of these plugs and the specific designs explained here. - 81 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 84: Servicing The X13
Standard ECM Motor Diagnostics TECMate Usage Chart Troubleshooting with the TECMate Module and Motor Replacement Final Installation Checks The ECM Service Guide replaced the Home Comfort Guide. - 82 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 85 It is also a good practice to make sure that the ground connection from the (G) terminal to the main ground is good. For more information on checking the ground see page 55 of this manual. - 83 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 86 Our leads were supplied by Test Products International (TPI). For more information on these leads please visit our website at www.theDealerToolbox.com. - 84 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 87 Others may chose to only connect the wires that are powered. Changing the airflow is then done at the motor taps. - 85 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 88 Thermostat C L G N 24vac 1 2 3 4 5 Common Heat Heat Heat Cool Cool 2 Ton Cool 3 Ton OEM Circuit Board No Program - 86 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 89 If this voltage is present but below this range, confirm that this voltage is present at the unit transformer, and the at the thermostat low voltage connections on the unit control board. - 87 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 90 Then the motor must be replaced. A direct replacement motor from the manufacturer for the same model and size unit is required. - 88 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Page 91: Replacing The X13
If the wheel sits too close to the motor when centered or cannot be centered because it hits the motor, the motor must be adjusted in the belly band. - 89 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2... - Page 92 Be certain to form a drip-loop so that water cannot enter the motor by draining down the cables. Condensate or droplets can accumulate in the harness and may find their way into the motor. - 90 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
- Page 93 Check the level of Carbon Monoxide (CO) in the vent(s) and living spaces of all homes with fossil-fuel appliances. Recommend annual maintenance - 91 - © 2006 GE ECM by Regal-Beloit Indoor Blower Motors v0.2...
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Questions and answers
I **** looking for a replacement ECM module 2.3 CP02. Need to know if this rotates CW or CCW and if it has standard or custom programming. It is driving the **** motor for a Hydron HP system from 2006
this is the motor the ECM module is connected to
resistor is blown. I understand this is a "common" occurrence. If I can find a replacement resistor I'm told if I have a friend solder it in place, my HVAC guy can get me up and running. What do I need and where can I get it?